Wicked Good Conference / Boston /

Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next page Last page  View All


By Tony Toflah52@aol.com - Dec 18, 2003, 10:45 PM
Post #1 of 182

Another young man from Boston is mounting a challenge to the affirmative action hiring policies used by the City of Boston when hiring firefighters and police officer. I think that this is a good thing. After thirty years of beating up Boston's white middle class, its good to see that the federal judges are starting to wake up and see the light. These challenges are good for many reasons, but two stand out; first, the City of Boston will get a better quality of firefighters and police officers because it will have one less group of people with statutory preference. People will be hired based upon merit. Second, the young men who have superb qualifications and have been denied jobs(in some cases, for over ten years) will finally get their chance at the job they rightfully deserve. It is amazing that the Boston Globe had a hand bringing this to the forfront.
Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.

By Ron Newman - Dec 18, 2003, 10:55 PM
Post #2 of 182 [In reply to]

To be effective and trusted in all parts of the city, a police force needs to mirror the makeup of the community. That is the purpose of affirmative action.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Tony - Dec 18, 2003, 11:08 PM
Post #3 of 182 [In reply to]

Hello Ron,
How can everybody, especially those 50 men who scored 100% on the police exam, be expected to trust police officers when they know that many of the police officers are less qualified than those who were left out of the selection process?
I don't see what is wrong with having the most qualified people for the job. We shouldn't have the public second guessing the qualifications of the police officers, especially in times of crisis. Its the quality of the officers, not the diversity of the police department that is important to the taxpayers. And, speaking of the taxpayers, it amazes me that the city has already lost a lawsuit which is exactly the same as the two filed against the fire department and the one against the police department, yet it is going to waste money to fight these. The city has no chance to win, and will have to hire the white individuals, but is wasting money to prove a point.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.

By Ron Newman - Dec 18, 2003, 11:34 PM
Post #4 of 182 [In reply to]

For the police to be effective, they need to have the trust of the community, and they need at times to be able to blend into the community. If you're dealing with Chinese gang wars, for instance, you need police officers who speak Chinese and look Chinese.

"Qualification" is not a single-dimensional thing, and I doubt that an exam can adequately measure it.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.

By eeka - Dec 19, 2003, 9:29 AM
Post #5 of 182 [In reply to]

As I've done many times here, let me explain how CORRECTLY APPLIED affirmative action works.

1) A list of qualifications is made. Each qualification is stated so that an applicant either has it or does not have it. Examples include "has a high school diploma," "has greater than five years experience working in human services," "can take and pass a CPR course," "was dressed acceptably for interview," and so forth.

2) A list of demographic traits that are underrepresented in the workforce is made. Applicants can check off that they either are or are not "a person of Asian/Pacific descent," "a person with a physical disability," "a person from a low-income background," etc. The hiring committee decides in advance whether they are going to prefer the applicants in order of who checked the most boxes or whether they're really hurting for someone of a particular group and are going to prefer that applicant.

3) The pool is narrowed down to those people who meet the stated job qualifications. If not enough people do, the qualifications are revised so that applicants only need three years experience, or whatnot.

4) Of the applicants in the pool of qualified candidates, those who best help the company to reflect the diversity of its community are chosen.

When affirmative action is correctly applied, as above, there are not "more qualified" candidates. If the qualification is that someone scores above 70 on an exam, someone who scored 71 is qualified, as is someone who scored 100. It also doesn't factor in that "yeah, but she has a PhD from Harvard," because that was not one of the qualifications listed for the job.

Generally speaking, a company cannot purposely hire a workforce that's vastly disproportionate to the community it's serving. For instance, it would be discrimination for a company to purposely have its workforce comprised of 90% GLBT-identified folks, unless there's a reason for this, like if it's a program for GLBT youth. A company also can't intentionally hire a 90% Spanish-speaking workforce, unless the company works with Latino/a folks and offers services in Spanish. These WOULD be examples of hiring practices that are discrimination rather than affirmative action. If they state that they're hiring according to affirmative action and they already have vastly more Black folks than the general population does, then the people who checked the "Black" box would be the last chosen. There actually are reports of companies that have an affirmative action hiring policy, and because they tend to do a lot of hiring from certain colleges or communities or whatnot, they actually will occasionally have a wave of new hires where they had to prefer the Whites or the males or the able-bodied folks in order to be in accordance with affirmative action.

Of course, there are also other businesses that are in certain communities and that deal in certain products or services that are pretty closely tied to a certain ethnicity or other group and so these places are going to mostly have applicants of that group and mostly hire from that group. Some examples might be a bookstore selling books of a particular language, a salon caring for skin/hair of people of color, or various restaurants serving traditional foods from a region. But they didn't set up a hiring practice so as to purposely hire only people from one group -- the community from which they get most of their business and their employees just happens to be rather homogeneous.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Chris - Dec 19, 2003, 9:39 AM
Post #6 of 182 [In reply to]

Any challenge to affirmative action gets my support, it's the right thing to do.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Frankie - Dec 19, 2003, 9:48 AM
Post #7 of 182 [In reply to]


In Reply To
Any challenge to affirmative action gets my support, it's the right thing to do.


Why?

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Chris - Dec 19, 2003, 10:00 AM
Post #8 of 182 [In reply to]

Hiring based on raced is racism.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.

By Ron Newman - Dec 19, 2003, 10:03 AM
Post #9 of 182 [In reply to]

How effectively could an all-Anglo police force deal with crime in the Chinese or Latino or Haitian communities?

Effectiveness should be the primary goal of hiring for a police department.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Frankie - Dec 19, 2003, 10:08 AM
Post #10 of 182 [In reply to]


In Reply To
Hiring based on raced is racism.


Freud luvs ya.

Hiring based on race is combating the racism built into the fabric of the country.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Beso - Dec 19, 2003, 10:08 AM
Post #11 of 182 [In reply to]

I go back and forth on this issue. How is affirmative action "affirmative" for the people who score 100% and lose out to a person scoring 75% because of race? Why conduct a test if race will be the determining factor? It amkes no sense to me. however, i do think that having a police force that's, for example, 90% white based on merit scores is not good for the city. I think there should be black cops in Roxbury, Latino cops in east Boston and JP, etc. Why firefighters need AA is beyond me. What does race have to do with climbing a ladder?

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Chris - Dec 19, 2003, 10:10 AM
Post #12 of 182 [In reply to]

"How effectively could an all-Anglo police force deal with crime in the Chinese or Latino or Haitian communities?"

Noone is suggesting such a thing, and you are insulting other races by this statement.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Beso - Dec 19, 2003, 10:12 AM
Post #13 of 182 [In reply to]


In Reply To


In Reply To
Hiring based on raced is racism.


Freud luvs ya.

Hiring based on race is combating the racism built into the fabric of the country.



So if the police force in Wellesley serves 99.9% white citizens, why do they need AA?

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Chris - Dec 19, 2003, 10:13 AM
Post #14 of 182 [In reply to]

Hiring based on race is racism.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Chris - Dec 19, 2003, 10:14 AM
Post #15 of 182 [In reply to]

"What does race have to do with climbing a ladder?"


Absolutely nothing, it's a sham.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Frankie - Dec 19, 2003, 10:17 AM
Post #16 of 182 [In reply to]


In Reply To


In Reply To
Hiring based on race is combating the racism built into the fabric of the country.


So if the police force in Wellesley serves 99.9% white citizens, why do they need AA?



I assumed Wellesley is part of the country.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Frankie - Dec 19, 2003, 10:18 AM
Post #17 of 182 [In reply to]


In Reply To
Hiring based on race is racism.


Narrow and in-exact.

Hiring based on race corrects racism.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Frankie - Dec 19, 2003, 10:19 AM
Post #18 of 182 [In reply to]


In Reply To
"What does race have to do with climbing a ladder?"


Absolutely nothing, it's a sham.


"Climbing a ladder" is not the sole issue.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.

By Ron Newman - Dec 19, 2003, 10:20 AM
Post #19 of 182 [In reply to]

I'm not insulting anyone. I'm just saying that when a police force doesn't speak the language of the community that it is policing, or doesn't have members that are immersed in its culture, then it won't be as effective as it should be.

In extreme cases, it may even be resented as an occupying force. This was one cause of the urban riots of the 1960s and 70s.

My argument is very specific to police departments -- it doesn't apply to fire departments.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Beso - Dec 19, 2003, 10:27 AM
Post #20 of 182 [In reply to]


In Reply To
I'm not insulting anyone. I'm just saying that when a police force doesn't speak the language of the community that it is policing, or doesn't have members that are immersed in its culture, then it won't be as effective as it should be.

In extreme cases, it may even be resented as an occupying force. This was one cause of the urban riots of the 1960s and 70s.

My argument is very specific to police departments -- it doesn't apply to fire departments.



I agree w/ that for a diverse city like Boston but why have AA in a lilly-white community?

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.

By Ron Newman - Dec 19, 2003, 10:28 AM
Post #21 of 182 [In reply to]

You probably don't need it there. But this thread opened by talking about Boston.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Chris - Dec 19, 2003, 10:31 AM
Post #22 of 182 [In reply to]

Who said that police officers who "mirror" the community would not be hired without the affirmative action?

If you believe that this would happen, could you explain why?

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Chris - Dec 19, 2003, 10:34 AM
Post #23 of 182 [In reply to]

"Narrow and in-exact."

Explain.

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.

By Ron Newman - Dec 19, 2003, 10:49 AM
Post #24 of 182 [In reply to]

> Who said that police officers who "mirror" the community would not be hired without the affirmative action?

Isn't that exactly what affirmative action is -- hiring to mirror the community? Do you interpret it to mean something else?

Register or log in to reply



Re: Affirmative Action Challenge/B.F.D. and B.P.D.
By Chris - Dec 19, 2003, 10:56 AM
Post #25 of 182 [In reply to]

I'm saying without affirmative action, is there any reason to doubt that people who "mirror the community" wouldn't be hired.

If so, why?

Register or log in to reply


First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next page Last page  View All